Two-House Doctrine Debate

Submitted by: TMC, June 24th, 2008 Topic: Messianic Forums
Tags: Replacement Theology, replacement theology, The Messianic Center , The Messianic center, The Messianic Center, Two-House Doctrine

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telephone commented on December 31, 2009: To me why does it really matter ! There is only ONE WAY to heaven and that is through Yeshua. He said "I AM the way the truth and the life " isn`t that all that matters ? Did not Paul state that in Christ there is no "Greek or Jew" We are all one . We live in a world whre vast hordes are dieing a Christless death and yet we the Church bicker over what amounts to silly doctrinal differences.

ShalomYahshua commented on September 06, 2009: The Two House Doctrine is definitely not Replacement Theology and there is overwhelming evidence for using the True Names. ShalomYahshua_net.

John Diff commented on April 28, 2009: Robert, having been involved in the "Ephraimite movement" for more than 15 years, I can assure you that land division us not an objective for 99.9% of Ephraimites. Ephraimites have absolutely no desire to divide the land of Israel or take any land from the Jews. There may be a few folks who have gone "off the reservation" concerning this issue (as there are with any spiritual issue), but it does not resonate with the mainstream of the Ephraimite community. The only significant sentiment that I have ever heard concerning Ephraimites making aliyah is their simple desire to have the option of living in the land. Ephraimites are ferociously Zionistic and fully support the Jews' right to their homeland. What's more, most Ephraimites strongly support the idea of Israel expanding her borders. With Israel's history of readily giving up her land, I find such a notion to be very refreshing. Most Ephraimites also believe that they will ultimately return to the Land at (if not slightly before) the Messiah's return. At that time, I doubt land distribution will be a serious concern for anyone. Furthermore, Abraham was promised the land from Iraq to Egypt, which should provide plenty of space for everyone.

robertjengelbach@yahoo.com commented on April 16, 2009: Are many of those who claim to be Epharaimites claiming rights to ten twelfths of the current physical land of Israel as the orignal "Error" paper asserted? If so, how is it practical to squeeze so many people into one little overburdened country? Why is it not enough for redeemed Jews and Gentiles to look forward in unity to the promise of a new earth, new heaven, and new Jerusalem, which will not have the present geographical limitations? Wouldn't that make a lot more sense, instead of stirring up more concerns about territorial conflict in a land already swamped with such problems?

ohevyisrael commented on March 28, 2009: The bible say non-jewish believers are grafted into the olive tree and become a part of Israel. We do not replace anyone we are joined with them. Anyone who believes in replacement theology doesn't really believe in the two-house theory anyways because they don't see any place for Israel in G-ds plan. I think people are getting the two beliefs mixed up!

DeborahsDrash commented on March 27, 2009: Shalom In Yeshua...We had a Jewish Man from Israel at our Chicago ResTORAHation Conference last year and he believes in the reuniting of all of Israel according to Ezekial 37. He is not Messianic but is a Torah Observant Jew. He spoke and was so blessed to see so many people who were returning to Torah and said he would tell those in Israel about us. I am one of those lost Jews who was drawn back to my roots the Ruach HaKodesh and later found out by taking a DNA test that I am sephardic Jewish on my mothers side. The message is not 2 seperate Houses, but G-d making the 2 Houses ONE again as in Davids time. Shaul also alludes to this in Romans 11. We meet for Sabbath at a Jewish Synagogue and have a great relationship with the people there who allow us to use the Synagogue and know we are Messianic! I thought this was a place that truly had a heart to be one in Messiah. I think all of this in fighting truly grieves His Heart. Happy New Year! The Aviv Barley has been spotted in Jerusalem.!

Driver commented on February 24, 2009: John Diff is right. No one can deny the separation of the Kingdom of Israel into two distinct Houses. The northern House of Israel was sent into exile and has yet to return in mass. They were never called Jews. The southern House of Judah is where the name Jew comes from. This is all supported by scripture. It was the House of Judah to whom G-d entrusted the Torah. It was the House of Israel of whom the leading tribe was Ephraim, who G-d divorced. Yeshua said he came for the lost sheep of the House of Israel. It is the House of Israel who needs to return via Yeshua to that which they had left namely Torah. So it is brother Judah who needs to teach those returning. There is no replacement, for no one is above the other in Yeshua. Those of the House of Israel (only G-d knows who they are at this time) and the Gentiles coming along with them should be willing to be taught.

shama commented on January 24, 2009: Replacement theology is a false doctrine roaming around christian congregations dissipated by some arrogant and ignorant christian leaders. They think that they are far better than the Jews and that the new covenant is for the Gentiles. They cannot accept that the covenants and the promises were given to the house of Judah and house of Israel according to Jeremiah 31:31. They believe in a lie and lead others to do the same and keeping the elect to receive the blessings by being attached to their Jewish roots of faith. I hope they repent before Matt 7:21-23 becomes a reality for them.

Levi commented on January 23, 2009: The entire concept & theology of the 2 house doctrine as Malcolm said is about placement. If we are in the Body what does it matter? Being Jewish isn't always the best thing to be & yet now we need 2 houses? It is interesting that the very basic premise of this is based on 1 tribe which is not even mentioned in the book of Revelation!

jeff commented on January 22, 2009: Goyim

messianic commented on November 21, 2008: Replacement Theological is a lie. We just filmed a new dvd called"Messianic Jews:Why Should I Care? Drs. David Hocking, Tim La Haye, and Chuck Missler discuss the truth concernuing replacement theology. Also Sharon Wilbur, Johnathan Settel, Maurice Sklar,Michele Arnow sing. www.messianicmedia.org

Mia commented on November 08, 2008: More skism more junk so what if someone believe's they are Ten TRibers, Messianic, Nazarene's SO what, main thing they follow Torah, they love each other, this doctrinal theology is the biggest problem with all of it, I say throw it all out the door and just keep Torah, You might have to ask Judah how but if so it wont hurt you. Keep Torah from the smallest to the greatest commandment Keep it. If your lost you will be found in Torah there is no other path. Quit! silence your theology and get busy living Torah, let it go simply put grab onto Torah and DOnt let go. You will find all your longing for there and NO where else and for goodness sake start living in community together in Torah, and quit this business of the doctrin of the nicolatians (look it up) and unify. Shalom Mia

John Diff commented on October 23, 2008: To enhance this discussion, I highly recommend that everyone check out the topic entitled "Looking closer at the Ephraimite debate." It provides a little more perspective on the issues surrounding this debate.

DonMeecha commented on August 28, 2008: Amen and Amen Irishwanderer...we should look at each other the way God looks at us, without disctinction. And even if we do at times get hung up on this because we do remain in our earthly physical distinctions, we must realize that as Messianics if we unite under the simple banner that our core values stem from this confession: "If we believe God raised Yeshua from the dead and we confess with our mouth He is Lord, we are saved! Then let's get along with that common belief and move on. We need to be sharing Yeshua and our faith collectively as a movement so others may be saved....

Irishwanderer commented on August 27, 2008: Its amazing how all this confusion arises. No one in Messianic Judasim has defined Kosher doctrine because it would cause so much division that the movement wouldn't hold together Two house doctrine means different things to different people. So who's defination is correct is it that those gentiles with a spirit of Ruth are really lost Jews returning my Rabbi friend wouldn't say he believes that but yet he name searchs everyone who attends his congregation with his little database and sure enough almost everyone's name shows up. To him I am a Jew because my last name was in the database to the Jewish historical society in my home town I am a gentile and I asked them. My family name was adopted by Jew who arrived in the early 1800's As for blood tests were should I go to get one? So if I am biologically a jew what does it mean am I saved by faith or by Race? Am I grafted in or part of the tree?

Levi commented on August 26, 2008: All this boils down to is a bunch of people fighting over position. It is exactly the same as James and John asking Yeshua, and literally fighting over, who will sit at His right hand and who will sit at His left....I think you should leave it up to God and yeshua and let them tell you when you get to heaven where you will be placed...spread the Good News instead of arguing about where you are positionally in Messiah....you are already there...who cares wherein?

Malcolm J Osborne commented on August 22, 2008: Comment on the “Two House” discussion. Shalom everybody, this Malc, I became a new member this week. I have read with interest but also concern the postings on the above matter. It seems to me that so much has been written about identity – Who we are or who we might be, and its supposed importance from various standpoints! Admittedly, my own interest in Torah and Hebraic roots was peaked when I found out about my Jewish ancestry, but if we have come to be found in Messiah, does our ancestry really matter That much? Is it really about us, or is it about HIM and HIS Purposes? It does disturb me when I pick up from within Messianic circles, that God has finished with those who are not counted as Jews, in the national sense. Yet for those who are not, how much should it matter whether anybody is of “Ephraim” instead? Moreover, if the fruitcake variety out there want to insist that they are God’s Replacement people, that Won’t affect His purposes, so why let it affect us so much? It is unwise to be dogmatic about certain things, but nevertheless, when one looks at Romans 11, could not verse 17 suggest that it is the Lost Tribes that are being spoken of, as being - Broken Off? With scripture from verse 23 onwards, then stating that these broken off ones will one day be grafted back in? Verse 26 being of special significance here. He knows who they are and will re-institute His Covenant{s} with them. Yeshua said that HAD other sheep to bring in, in John 10: 16. At that time the world of Christians did not exist, so whom did He also Have – present tense? It is unlikely to happen tomorrow, but I believe that God meant what He said when He informed Moses that his people would be for Himself, a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. He also said to tell that to the Israelites. {Ex 19:6} As I said above, It disturbs me when I pick up within Messianic circles, the notion God has finished with those who are not counted as Jews, when it comes to the outworking of his purposes. I would suggest that there are many more important things to consider than Identity matters, but I will say this in closing; if God will not do what He has promised, why are we concerning ourselves about anything? Regards, Malcolm

eliahu commented on August 08, 2008: I'm wondering if Messianic Judaism isn't devolving to an earlier stage of its development? For now I see that after years of our struggling to define ourselves in accord with greater Biblical clarity, we now appears to have reached some sort of circumstantial impasse that almost riles against upholding the Torah. [Rom 3:31] Earlier it seemed as if a maturation in messianic thought had reached a plateau which might necessitate the formation of our own Torah halakah ( a halakah being dissimilar to the Ora Rabbonim where issues on Mashiach Yshu'a would be concerned but which still recognized the spiritual and authoritative process passed down via the generations of our people), that perspective now seems too readily abandoned. For discounting the knowledge and wisdom of our collective traditions and teachings, there seems now to be a more preferable view in the congregations, even a reverting back to what was once more standard for believing messianic Jews; their assimilation into the medley found locally at the vibrant Bible Church. It seems to me that the emphasis on unity now sought, even by such way-out groups as those promoting classifications as in the Two House teachings, is really nothing more than another version of a very old dynamic, a dynamic seeking to efface the advantages of the Jew. [Rom 3:1,2] In shying away from the wealth of knowledge inherent in Torah study and its observance, and by not crossing the line into upholding the law, (the most integral part of our unique calling in the purposes of G-d), believing Jews are now taking hold of their gentile brothers hems, in an unfolding trend that seeks to undo all distinctions found less palatable to the sensibilities of men. Is this not a forsaking of the Will of G-d, in favor of promoting an egalitarian uniformity after the reasoning of men?

Levi commented on July 25, 2008: The 10 "Lost Tribes" are not, nor were, as lost as so many think...Anna, the prophetess in Luke is from the Tribe of Asher and James writes his letter "To the 12 Tribes scattered abroad." They knew who they were and were they were. I say have all those who think they are Jews from the lost tribes take a DNA test and prove once and for all if they are or are not....

madmath commented on July 24, 2008: Part of the problem is that "two house" doesn't really have a clear definition. There are several different versions of the two house doctrine. I was first exposed to this belief through a book called "Who is Israel?" I read the book because our congregation was two house and I wanted to know what that meant. After reading it, I rejected the two house doctrine. The version of two house that I received (whether or not that was what the author intended) was that the vast majority of non-Jewish Messianic believers were physical descendants of the ten lost tribes. I have yet to find any scriptural evidence for that. Nevertheless I stayed open and continued to search it out. There were scriptures that I did not understand (such as Ezekiel 37). Today I believe what could be called a form of two house doctrine. I believe that there are ten lost tribes. I do not believe that we (believers) are all descendants of these tribes. I believe that through Messiah we are grafted into Israel (Romans 11). I believe that Ephraim and Judah will be reunited in the near future (Ezekiel 37). I believe that when they are reunited, Gentile believers will go with Ephraim. We will then become one people called Israel. Physically I am a Gentile, but through faith I am part of God's people, and God's people is called Israel. That is my personal belief. My point is not to convince you that I am right. I am just trying to show that not everyone has the same definition of "two house".

eliahu commented on July 10, 2008: I think that the roots of this problem (the two house views), is not a doctrinal one but arises out of identity anxiety. Such anxieties prompt discomfort with Scripture and practises which are interpreted as relegating the gentile to a lesser status or function than that of his Jewish peers in the body. And Jewish believers with little to nominal religious orientations and for variety of egalitarian and well intentioned reasons, may also feel equally uneasy with the idea of a "second status" class of believers within the same body. So the expected reaction is to suppress the teachings which might be presented as a case for the unique calling of Israel vies-a-vie the calling of gentiles into the body of our Mashiach. Presumably this is done in a prophylactic effort aimed at maintaining an unencumbered worship by all in the unity of the body. And because of the various maturity levels it is put forward that its best to rally around the core doctrines of our faith because to be other wise minded is to provoke division and ill accord. But I think that this argument is very much like a sort of "dumbing down," of doctrine or more specifically, resolving doctrine interpretations on the basis of the underlying identity anxieties which might be provoked and whatever other emotions might be evoked. It is a subjugation of the difficult Scriptural teaching to the popular disposition. Could not an identity anxiety working through a Jewish or gentile leader, subtly animate via his leadership in ways which put in motion or promote the kind of views and works which would be in sympathy to his anxieties? And more overtly, might he not impose seek to impose his biases through his teaching styles or more subtly, the worship milieu and preferences of his congregants?

eliahu commented on July 10, 2008: I could not disagree with you more, John Diff. In my experience I have not seen an undermining of messianic outreach efforts to Jews because the number of gentile members in a messianic group was large. And most often the non believing Jewish person, first enters a Messianic congregation on the invitation of their gentile believing friends, and these Jews are not from Orthodox backgrounds. If anything, most Jewish believers are often to quick to hold negative attitudes towards the Orthodoxy for their seemingly impenetrable positions.

John Diff commented on July 07, 2008: I feel that one of the the primary reasons why Messianic Judaism rejects the "Two House" message is that it undermines one of their overarching goals of being accepted as branch of Judaism. Simply put, they cannot be a branch of Judaism if their members are not primarily Jewish. Thus, "Gentile" Messianics hinder their goal. It is ironic though that the Orthodox Jewish community embraces the "Ephraimites" while rejecting Messianic Judaism.

Levi commented on July 05, 2008: You know, I have read all these comments and all I can think of is..."any way Messiah is preached." Two-House Doctrine is interesting, yet I think those who follow it need to remember that Ephraim was half Egyptian and half Hebrew. And maybe, Joseph's sons replace Ishmael & Esau....becaue he is not mentioned...I beleive as a type of Messaih...he did reign!

eliahu commented on July 04, 2008: Mordecai, are there no ambiguities in the body of Mashiach? Integrity and spiritual truth conveys a distinction which points to some "middle walls," they appear to remain. Gender distinction in the body of Mashiach is not a threat to the unity of the body unless a doctrine arose calling for the abolitions of all gender related distinctions in the body. So it is on this matter too.

eliahu commented on July 04, 2008: It does not yet appear what shall be the rewards and gifting which Hashem Hakodesh Borahu shall divvy to the faithful of the nations, those which from earliest times have joined themselves to Israel at her exodus, in the days of the beis haMikdash, and to the Mashiach in his Torah righteousness and even during the times of Yaakob's troubles unto the era of her exaltation in the olam haba. Yet we know that even prior to the birth-throbs of Yaakob's transformation into Israel, we suspect an awakening and selfless maturation of some gentiles of whom one shall take hold of the tzitzot of a Jew and exclaim that he shall go up with the Jew to mount tzyon, .... not as a Jew nor usurper of yiddishkeit but in the glory of a righteous ger rejoicing in the fulfilment of the Words and Works of Hashem.

treelife commented on July 04, 2008: Shalom! When I was invited to join The Messianic Center I was under the impression that anyone in the Messianic Movement was allowed to a part of this forum. I am a Messianic Jew by choice and Jewish by birth buit my ministry has been to the non-Jews out there and I personally believe that all Believers, regardless of their birth status, become part of the commonwealth of Israel, under which there are twelve tribes as affimed by Scripture and two groups, one Jewish and one not Jewish or Epharim if you choose to define them as such and those who choose to join themselves to one of these two groups as shown to us in Ezekiel 37. To infer that the teaching of the two house message is Replacement Theology simply is wrong. Before issuing such a statement you need to talk to those who are part of this movement because it is growing and overshadowing Messianic Judaism. The two house teaching, in its simplest form, does not embrace Replacment Theology but strives to be a equal part of Israel and not a second class member as Messianic Judaism has done for too many years. I believed that this forum was about bringing unity to the Messianic Movement but if such statements as the one posted concerning the two house teaching is the belief of the Messianic Center then I will have no choice but to remove myself from this forum because this statement follows the same pattern of the rest of Messianic Judaism attempting to paint anything that it does not understand as being anti-Judah. I affirm my Jewishness and my belief in my Messiah but as the Apostle Shaul said in two places in his Epistles, there is no difference between brethren in Messiah Yeshua. Don't keep making the middle wall of partition higher brothers. Bring it down! Todah, Mordecai Silver

Medwining commented on July 04, 2008: I am encouraged to hear of the Messianic Center's statement on Two House Theology. I can only hope that this is a doctrine that we will soon see fall by the wayside. Indeed there are many Scriptural problems with it. 2 Chr 11 tell us that many out of ALL the tribes went to the southern kingdom. But Messianic should look carefully, word by word at Romans 11. Paul tells us first off that we are Gentiles. He says we were not of the same stock at the rich olive tree. He says were have been grafted in AMONG THEM. Clearly Paul never is welcoming back lost tribes. Read Nehemiah and Ezra and see how all the tribes were present as the Temple was being rebuilt. Our 2 House teaching is more of the arrogance that Paul warns us about. We got the feeling that the Jews need to grafted on to us. We feel like we are the rightful heirs of the promises. Paul says otherwise. We should count ourselves grateful to be grafted in. So if we have been grafted in "among them", why do we never find ourselves among the Jewish community?

Tzidkenu commented on June 27, 2008: It strikes me that those who espouse the "two house" theory seem to have an identity crisis. I have run across this many times in that people want to be what they are not. Ephesians 2 says former Gentiles are part of Israel's commonwealth. It does not say they are Israel proper. Canada, Jamaica, India, etc. are all part of Britain's commonwealth but we are not British. We are recipients of the blessings, much as Canada benefited from Britain through preferred trade practices, adopting their system of government, military protection, etc. Gentile believers receive salvation through aligning themselves with Israel but are not transformed into Jews, physically or spiritually. Sha'ul says to remain as you were called. If we're so busy trying to be what we're not. we can't focus on just being as we are and that is a child of God, redeemed by His act of grace.

yaakov commented on June 27, 2008: Shalom Brethern, I know today this is a heated issue in many corners of the earth. Without argument let me say that regardless of what our feelings are on this issue we must take as our final word the scriptures. Let us note that the prophet Zechariah makes the following information available to us concerning the time of the end and the time when the nations shall come against the nation we know as Israel and specifically the city of Jerusalem. The HOLY ONE who through his spirit gave this information to Zechariah obviously tells us much if we will but listen. First in Zechariah 12:7 we are told: " The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah." Who is it that comes back into the land first? Here we are told it is Judah....so why are we told it was Judah instead of Israel? Then we are told this piece of information by the Prophet of The HOLY ONE. Zechariah 14:14 "And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance." Now who did The HOLY ONE say was at Jerusalem when the Nations come against Jerusalem? Was it Judah or Israel? Why was this destinction made? These are questions that each one must answer for themselves but they go to the base of the question at hand. For me it is a very simple answer. The HOLY ONE does everything in His order. He told us that these things went to the Jew first and then the Gentiles. Therefore the order. In the scriptures above we see that this same order is borne out. Jew first and then Gentiles. So we all must stay in our order not trying to take a place but being willing to be placed by The Messiah Yeshua when He comes. Order and Law are something that The HOLY ONE upholds and it would do us all well to remember and do the same. May The Peace of Yeshua and that of The HOLY ONE rest upon each of you and you search the scriptures and prove all things and hold fast that which is GOOD! Shalom

eliahu commented on June 27, 2008: Is every dissertation an affront to the unity and sound standing of the body of believers?

eliahu commented on June 27, 2008: ...at the risk of being even more estranged from the "main stream" voices which have sprouted in defence of the two house perspective,I ask if unity in the body of faith proclaiming believers is the primary objective where sound doctrine is concerned?

Eliyahu commented on June 26, 2008: If I take this quote as stated and not the discussion that has ensued, it is simply stating that TMC will not "circulate or endorse" the material and theology. But welcomes and encourages open discussions in an intelligent and respectful manner. I believe that the topic can be discussed but the forums are not meant to promote the theology. The other part of this is should the statement be remove, maybe it should be a poll question. However, it saddens me to see how quickly people are offended and acting self-righteously to defend a theology either for or against, when it has nothing to do with salvation. I am already aware of individuals who stated they would not join TMC because TMC allows Two-House teachers to be members and on the opposite side do not want to join because TMC will not promote and endorse Two-House. How easily offended we are, no wonder we cannot easily build unity if we are going to get offended so quickly. If your belief is strong let it defend itself and do not become its defender. I could debate the topic theologically, but what would be the point, one who is convicted of ones theology will not be swayed by these discussions, only by spending time with an open mind to study and not to prove a point or accept other men’s word for it just because they are well known. If unity is to be accomplished we need to stop being offended so easily. This site has many that are not even followers of Yeshua joining, and what witness to them are we then? Are we going to appear petty or show the love for each other that we are suppose to have and not be like people that will not join a site just because they felt it necessary to make a statement. Did anyone ask why the statement was made or just get offended because it was made? Please let us show some of that love of Messiah and build unity.

Tsadik commented on June 26, 2008: Like I had said before DNFTT

eliahu commented on June 26, 2008: WOW! I think its pretty disingenuous to Post a comment such as "Recently, a response was given with great concern over this statement, and we want to know if you think TMC should take down their posting? What are your beilefs on these issues? Where do you think the Messianic community as a whole stands?" and then be hit in the head with remarks such: Eliahu, the last time I saw, this thread was about whether to remove the "Two House Statement" or not. This thread is NOT about personal theologies and an open invite to splay them out in comment form. We do not need forum trolls here," preceded by the other poster's own doctrinal assertions... interesting ...

Tsadik commented on June 26, 2008: So its seems that we are already seeing the weapons drawn here. Eliahu, the last time I saw, this thread was about whether to remove the "Two House Statement" or not. This thread is NOT about personal theologies and an open invite to splay them out in comment form. We do not need forum trolls here, this board is particularly about uniting us as Israel, not pointing fingers and telling others what you believe is right theology. DNFTT http://hoboken411.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/please-do-not-feed-the-hoboken-trolls.jpg

John Diff commented on June 26, 2008: Considering the pointlessness of online debates and length of these comments, I would only like to make a few brief (and hopefully final) statements. First, the “Two-House Doctrine” (a.k.a. the Bible) asserts that all believers, regardless of race, are part of the commonwealth of Israel (Eph. 2:4-22). Thus, it does not matter if you are a descendant of Jacob, a convert, “spiritual Israel,” or a “spiritual Jew” – the end result is the same: You are fully and completely part of Israel. Bloodline, for both Jews and “Gentiles,” is impossible to prove. Therefore, we all rely on faith. Jer. 31:31 explicitly states that the “New Covenant” is made with the Israel (and Israel alone). As such, if you are a New Covenant believer, you are obviously part of Israel. It really is as simple as that. The “Two House Doctrine” is the most researched tenant of the Messianic movement, so, rather than just tossing it aside because of historical ignorance, please read what others have written. I find it somewhat odd that the people that oppose the “Two House Doctrine” have generally never even read the numerous books written on the subject (I personally recommend “Redeemed Israel” by Batya Wootten.)

eliahu commented on June 26, 2008: For the sake of clarity, let me address this issue again in response to John Diff. My argument is that G-d has only ONE ISRAEL and that His testimony and address to that ONE Israel has been consistent. He has stated that Israel is forever His special election, that Israel was given a physical exodus from Egypt and a unique standing as sons. He has also given Israel the Glory of His Presence and the Covenants of His Promises. He has given the privileges of Holy Services in the Temple and the Holy Scriptures which were and remain uniquely Israel's. He has also given Israel the instruction of His Prophets and the atonement which is in the Mashiach Yshu'a, in whom many "Jews" believed, though many more have not believed at this time but shall believe at G-d's appointed time. G-d has also made it clear in the Torah, that He remains faithful to His unique people Israel (Deut 30 1-6) for though they be in Galut He has promised by the mouth of Moshe that He will bring His Jewish People to the culmination of their status as His Israel in the day of Yaakob's full redemption and His coronation as Israel at Mashiach's return. Then He will circumcised their hearts and the hearts of those born during the Millennium. In all these things G-d has remained faithful to His Word, and His promises to haAm Israel even though we as a people have erred in faith during the period of our Galut. Yet some of Israel did not er in the days of Yshu'a and have not erred in the subsequent years since then, many continuing to come to a knowledge of the truth. And of these "Jews", these "Israel,” of them "it has been said that they are not only born Physical Jews which have had their circumcision in their flesh but that they are also Spiritual Jews,for they have undergone a circumcision in their spirit which is by their faith in the Mashiach and his Torah Righteousness. Such Jews, such an Israel, are called spiritual Jews and the Israel of G-d, as they have become the completed paradigm of their election. Now you are not incorrect to say that Jews and gentile believers are the people of G-d. It is perfectly OK and a Biblically sound conclusion within the context of their mutual relationship in the Mashiach and with HSHM. However, when “the people of G-d,” is presented as a psychological necessity (for unity's sake), to say that non-Jewish folks who have become believers are Jews, Israel or are become a "spiritual Israel," that is a non biblical statement, it is not specifically true and offers a false comfort and status to those which believe such as a teaching in the Scriptures. Now when it comes to the term "Jews," some of what you have said is correct but I think that you have chosen an odd moment to split this term, and only as it seems convenient to your argumentation. For certainly the term Jew/Jewish can and has been used as a pejorative or superlative and a misnomer. You can attach the term to the People of G-d, (Jews and non-Jewish Messianics combined), but to do so in the context of the Jewish people at large is misleading. And while it may be wrong to assume that Jews and Israel are synonymous terms, by whose book, and by which post haskalah author do you draw your distinctions and in what context and time-frame do you mark your Scriptural criteria ? For G-d has spoken to someone saying “Israel, my servant, Yakob whom I have chosen...” Isa 41:8-9 and note Rev 7:4-8. But even as non Jewish blood has poured into and animated the decendancy from Abraham, Yitzak and Yaakob's stock, such inclusions have conformed in their intent to the central lore of Israel's calling, holding central to the determinations of one peoplehood and G-d's promised fulfillment concerning the Land of Israel. And you are wrong to assume that all Jews are Israel or that not all Israel are Jewish. Are not some Jews converts from other peoples and not from Israel? Note that in Biblical times the term Israel did not apply to any of mixed multitude of peoples which exited with the People Israel from Egypt or later sojourned in the Land. Of course it is a different matter in the State of Israel today, for then your assumption may be correct, as there are Samaritans, Druze, Palestinians and Christians living in the Jewish State of Israel and they might even call themselves Israelite as a Nationality. Finally on the matter of the “Lost Tribes,” perhaps they were not so lost if you take into consideration the Words of Yaakob (James) in 1:1. In that verse he sends his salutatations to the twelve tribes of Israel which are in the Galut. Now unless you want to make the claim that his statement was an abiguous nicety which he uttered in the spirit of a people of unique standing, you would more conclude that an awareness of tribal decendancy was knowable even in the dispersion of first century Jewry.

Tsadik commented on June 25, 2008: I feel that for the sake of fairness we must be friendly to all believers in Messiah if we truly want to be about uniting the body of Messiah. The little details about theology can be worked out between each other one on one, but we all agree on the big details such as Messiah is our salvation and one must believe on him to be saved. With other social networking sites everyone can get along no matter if one is a believer or not, but as soon as we get a group of believers together we start aiming our weapons at each other and that needs to stop. To prevent this we must be fair to all believers. When we start discriminating against the little details of our beliefs it does not create oneness but division. So I vote for the taking down of the "Two house statement"

Abiron commented on June 25, 2008: For the longest time I have remained silent in open chat rooms due to this statement on your site. I agree with John in the fact that a large amount of your current users practice the two house philosophies. I am not going to put down either one our two house teachings but think of it this way no one has the 100% same beliefs across the board on everything. In the Messianic movement we have focused too long upon our differences and not enough on our common ground. Divided as a people we will surely continue to wander in the desert. A united people who respect their brothers and sisters and pray for healing in their differences truly is what our Mashiach wants. That was a huge part of his teaching. If Messianic Center doesn't agree with the Two House teachings that is fine, don't endorse those teachings, but don't keep alienating your brothers and sisters who would stand with you to protect Israel. I will be praying that our glorious Father grants you wisdom in this matter. Blessings upon you.

John Diff commented on June 25, 2008: Eliahu's entire argument is based on his premise that "God has only one people, and God's people are called Israel and that Jews are Israel but it is quite a leap in reasoning to assume that non Jewish believers are also Israel." Following this premise, the logical result is that only Jews belong to the people of God - not Christians or "Gentile" Messianics. This is obviously false. Furthermore, it is wrong to assume that "Jews" and "Israel" are synonymous terms. While all Jews are Israel, not all of Israel is (or ever was) Jewish. The only group of people that hold this errant belief are some Messianic Jews. Historians, professors, anthropologists, the Israeli government, and even Orthodox Jews know that Israel was divided and that what we commonly refer to as the "Jews" are only a fraction of the descendants of the ancient Israelites. What's more, to this day the Orthodox Jews continue to pray for and await the return of the "Lost Tribes." Thus, even a casual knowledge of the history of the Israelites and the beliefs of Judaism render Eliahu's argument completely invalid.

eliahu commented on June 25, 2008: Shalom. I do not find that TMC is acting unfairly, or inappropriately being discriminatory towards a large portion of the Messianic movement, nor is it working in a manner which is counter-productive to sound doctrine, the unity of the movement or the will and purposes of G-d. It is abundantly clear that God has only one people, and God’s people are called Israel and that Jews are Israel but it is quite a leap in reasoning to assume that non Jewish believers are also Israel. It is not as simple as is pretended. If I were a woman and in the evening I became a believer in Mashiach, would I be a man tomorrow because I was now in the faith? Would I ever be a man, albeit a man of faith or would sound doctrine correct my errant supposition and address me as a woman of faith instead? Would I under that definition be any less in the agency of my being as it pertained to my faith and works in Hshm? If believing in Mashiach does not eradicate the genetic gender distinctions of the male or female believer and that is basic to every person, then how much more so is there no eradication of the core and specific distinctions between the Jewish and non Jewish believer? The integrity of the spiritual truth that is conveyed about G-d's redemptive work and blessings to Jews and non Jewish which have become believers, cannot be compromised by a lie made to accommodate psychological sensibilities.

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