DW: Shalom Rabbi,

I have just finished reading some of your sermon on converting Jews and I would like to suggest one correction.  You should not have said a Jew can’t be a Christian and still be Jewish. My Judaism is a result of my bloodline. My faith in Yeshua is because of a choice. The two are not mutually exclusive. What you should be saying is as a believer in Yeshua the Messiah, I cannot practice rabbinic Judaism, which is not consistent with Tanakh anyway.The two statements are entirely different. Yours is disingenuous.

Jer 13 asks us whether a leopard can change his spots or an Ethiopian the colour of his skin. It’s a rhetorical question and of course the answer is no. My Jewishness is not as a result of anything I believe. If that were the case, Reconstructionist, Atheist, New Age, Buddhist and most likely many Reform, Conservative and even those in the Hassidic movement who practice Kabbalah cannot be considered Jewish. Why don’t you spend time getting them back to a right relationship with God?

If we are going to engage in a discussion about the Messiahship of Yeshua then let’s do so honestly. My biggest struggle in coming to faith was the fear of losing my Jewish identity. When I finally understood it was the most Jewish thing in the world to believe in the Jewish Messiah, I was a) relieved and b) very angry I had been lied to all my life. Your ascertations that believing in Yeshua takes away your Judaism is a scare tactic that drives people away from honest debate. If, as He says, He is the only way to God, then Jews need to be doing their own research without unfounded fears. By hiding behind the "you’re not Jewish anymore" argument, you’re no better than the Catholics who said for centuries "be baptized or die."

In Messiah
Darryl Weinberg

RSF: Sorry Darryl, but by becoming a Christian you have ceased to be a Jew.
Rabbi SF

DW: How is that possible? Find me one scriptural reference.

RSF: Darryl, Judaism, as I have pointed out to undergraduates, graduates, and many church and synagogue groups alike only begins with Scripture. It develops through the writings of the Talmud, Midrash, Codes, Commentaries and historical realities.  One can no more understand Judaism without these post biblical sources than a very myopic person can drive without glasses. Scripture is just the raw material of Judaism. The good news for you is that where there are two Jews you will have three opinions, and there are some credentialed Jewish sources who would consider you an apostate Jew, but still a Jew. I disagree with them.

For me it is much easier to say what a Jew cannot believe than what a Jew must believe. When one accepts – as you have – a theological point of view completely rejected by all bona fide Jewish sources: that Jesus is the Messiah, then that person is in my view no longer to be considered a Jew or a member of the Jewish community in any meaningful sense of the term.

By the way, why did you only read "some" of my sermon?

Rabbi SF

DW: Well, Rabbi, I was in fact looking for something else and stumbled upon your sermon and had to respond to a charge that frustrates me to no end. I will finish the rest in due time.

Again, what you are talking about is what defines Judaism, not what is a Jew. You must separate racial identity from belief. Taking your premise on what a Jew cannot believe, what do you do with the thousands of atheist Jews? Or those who practice Buddhism? Agnostics? Are they no longer Jews as well? You’ve just eradicated well over half of the Jewish population, even better then the Crusaders and Nazis did. What are your boundaries on what a Jew can believe and not and be specific in your sources. The question is, what defines a Jew? Why is it only those who accept Yeshua as Israel’s promised Messiah are denied their core identity? Up until the destruction of the second Temple, the Messianics were regarded as one of many expressions of Judaism, not apostates and certainly not non-Jews. Only after they didn’t fight in the first rebellion against Rome and again in the Bar Kochba revolt where he commanded them to be killed for not accepting his messiahship were they rejected completely from the Jewish community. Combine that with Gentile Christian anti-Semitism and you have a lie that’s been perpetrated on our people for over 1900 years – from both sides of the divide.

Sorry Rabbi, you, nor anyone other bona fide Jewish source has the authority to take away something that was given to me by God and that is my identity through my bloodline. Disagree with my theological premise. That is certainly your right but I am what I am and will be until the day I am done with this earthly vessel and go home to be with God.

Darryl

RSF: Dear Darryl, This is a free country, and you are entitled to believe what you wish and call yourself what you will. No one can take away that right. Yet, if someone asks me as a Rabbi whether I consider anyone who believes that Jesus is the Messiah is a Jew, my answer is no. I believe that my years of study and ordination as a rabbi from a respected institution of Jewish learning give me the right to make that judgment.

To answer your questions in my view Agnostic Jews are still Jews. No problem. Even if they claim to be atheists—not a problem. Buddhists?& I honestly have to give that more thought. I would say for now that if they actively practice Buddhist rites, probably not. If they simply claim to be attracted to Buddhist philosophy, that might be different.  But while other rabbis may disagree, for me one who becomes a Christian is no longer a Jew.

The sermon is not that long. I hope you will finish reading it.

Rabbi SF

 DW: Just wanted you to know that I appreciate your taking the time to discuss this with me. You of course realize the importance of the issue.

You make a point of listing your credentials but you haven’t actually answered my question. On what basis am I not a Jew? And why are Agnostics, who even doubt the existence of God and do not practice Judaism in any meaningful way, are?& Atheists who deny God outright are Jews when Judah means God praiser but I am not. Come on Rabbi. There’s no consistency here. I observe the Shabbat and the other feast days of Lev 23. I keep biblical kashrut. I study Tanakh daily. I am far more Jewish in my daily life than my pagan, unbelieving family who ridicule God and call me an "idiot" for believing in creation. My aunt actually told me years ago that "only intelligent people believe in evolution."  And you tell me that you will accept them into the community over me?& That I find highly offensive. And again, you’ve given no substantiation for your opinion, other than that’s what you feel.

RSF: Darryl, I think the sermon answers the question as well as I can. Try to read the whole thing with an open mind. Denying or not embracing traditional beliefs is one thing.  Embracing a belief totally contrary to Jewish thought is quite another. Why not be happy in your life as a Christian?

Rabbi SF

DW: Ok Rabbi. As promised I read the rest of the sermon and there isn’t one thing in there that convinces me I’m not Jewish anymore. Your ascertation that I don’t belong to the Jewish community may be debated as many in Israel were banished because of bad behaviour; but they were still Jewish. I define my Jewishness by parentage. I have Jewish blood. Beginning and end. What’s your definition?

As to embracing a belief that is contrary to Jewish thought, why is it that all the first believers were Jewish and even Josephus considers them part of the Jewish community? It’s only contrary to post-biblical Jewish thought. Atheism to me is completely contrary to Jewish thought but you seem willing to accept them as Jewish, as would I.

Darryl

RSF: Well, Darryl, I guess we have taken this about as far as we can. You are not a Jew because you have opted out by accepting the tenets of another religion—Christianity, which are diametrically opposed to Judaism as it has developed historically (and yes I know the first as you would call them believers were Jewish, but that was a long time ago). Bottom line is that no credentialed Jewish authority will grant you privileges as part of the Jewish community because belief in Jesus as the Jewish Messiah is antithetical to Jewish belief. Those who accept Jesus as Messiah are Christians, not Jews. That is one of the legitimate differences between our two different faiths. Now of course, neither I nor anyone else can stop you from calling yourself or considering yourself whatever you want, but for practical purposes in today’s world a Jew who converts to Christianity is no longer a Jew just as a Christian who converts to Judaism (and of course renounces any messianic connection to Jesus in the process) is no longer a Christian.

Rabbi SF

DW: Yes Rabbi but once again, am I not a Jew because I was born one? Are we not a race? I have indeed accepted the tenets of another religion (which I of course consider to be true Judaism, not the rabbinic form that you practice which has deviated from Tanakh) but if I have stopped being a Jew, what am I racially? Christianity is a faith and so I cannot be a Christian by race. This is the essence of my question.

Darryl

RSF: Darry, I guess where we differ is that I do not think of the Jewish people as a race. Jews come in all races: white, black brown yellow. But when one accepts Jesus he or she declares by that act:” I am no longer a Jew; I am now a Christian.” So no, we are not a race.

Rabbi SF

DW: Then what are we? So let me get this straight. You only consider a Jew to be one who practices Judaism, (or pretty much anything else except Messianic Judaism – you still haven’t explained how someone who denies God and practices Humanism can still be Jewish if this is your definition). Why does the Tanakh spend so much time talking about bloodlines then? If God’s promise to Abraham was to "you and your descendents," it would seem to be just that. Help me out here. What to you is a Jew?

Darryl

RSF: Darryl, A Jew is someone who is born and raised as a Jew who does not (ipso facto) renounce his Jewish status by accepting Jesus as a Messiah. A Jew is also someone born outside the faith who embraces Judaism, studies with a qualified rabbi and converts to the Jewish religion. So if a Christian becomes Jewish, he is no longer a Christian. If a Jew becomes a Christian, he is no longer a Jew. Race has nothing really to do with it.

Rabbi SF

DW: Alright, fine Rabbi. Then how can you accept the atheist who denies God altogether? Hasn’t he denied his Jewish status by accepting Darwinism, which is another religion?

Darryl

RSF: Darwinism is not a religion. It is a philosophy. Nobody I know worships Darwin.

Rabbi SF

DW: But Rabbi. We must worship something. The denial of God means the worship of self. We are the pinnacle of existence, there’s nothing else and all God has done has been attributed to some cosmic accident.  You want to talk about making God upset.

If by denying our Jewishness through our bloodline, you create a subjective definition, exactly as you have done. Then you get to pick and choose who you like to be part of your family and who you don’t when you have no authority to so. As much as it may upset you about who I’ve accepted to worship, I’m still mishpocha and will always be. No matter what your family does, they are still family. I’m sorry you feel the way you do but your definition of what a Jew is, according to Torah and not mine is wrong. If my parents are Jewish then so am I.

I very much appreciate your taking so much time to dialogue with me. Should I have another question in the future about the rabbinic interpretation of something, can I contact you again?

Blessings and shalom.
Darryl

RSF: Sure. But Darryl, by accepting Jesus you have made the choice to leave the Jewish family.

DW: Then so did the atheists my friend. Blood is still blood. You can’t have them without me. God bless Rabbi. Speak to you soon.

Darryl